Ben doubted:
I was talking to a friend the other day about the matters above. So basic you know when you like to be f***ed, you are a bottom and to f***, you are a top and if both versatile. So what if a person has gay sex (oral only) but don't do anal? Does it make him a versatile? Or is there a new name we don't know of? Is there such a rule as a top has to be with a bottom or a versatile and can not be with another top? Bottom with bottom? Why not?

Jung answered:
Interesting, cause I also find myself in the same doubt. Am I top or bottom or ver? I can never be able to answer it. I don't like to F, don't mind being F but doesn't really enjoy it, to me sex is a very intimate moment share between two persons, usually lots of hugging and kissing and exploring what will make them happy. Maybe I am not too hardcore and romantic where just a hug and kiss will make me very happy. But sometimes our partner might be too obsessed with sex and feel not happy about it. As in an earlier message, a lot of people always mistaken that sex and getting hard and cum is LOVE, which I don't agree with because I am and able to love a guy even if there is no sex for quite some time such as a long distance relationship. Sad to say, I failed after having two long distance relationships.

Steve shared:
Scientifically, oral sex is "cunnilingus" I might be wrong with the spelling. I think it is hard to refer it as top or bottom. I would rather say, perform or receive, or both, take or give. I guess there might be more, up to your own imaginations, hahahaha.

Ben, I don't think there is a fix and fast rule on the match for top + bottom, top + versatile, etc. It happens when more than one person feel like engaging in a situation without forcing anyone else and they may derive pleasure from the act. Won't this sound more sensible?

Keith opinioned:
Steve, I suppose we do not perform oral sex for ladies. Hence, "cunnilingus" should be changed to "fellatio".

I remember a question from a member during a hiking, how am I suppose to know someone is top or bottom? Personally, I do not agree with this classification. When you meet the right person, you will do whatever you can to please both parties.

Analogically, some prefer to eat with fork and spoon, some with hand, some with chopsticks, etc. And if they are only provided knives and forks, they can still finish the meal in certain way. Agree?

Top wants to be top may be because of the dominant behavior; bottom chooses to be bottom, may be because he likes to be dominated. However, it does not mean that top can not be bottom or vice versa. This is purely my personal opinion.

Jung added:
Sometimes it's funny to find this situation in chat room

A: asl, got pic? stay alone? top or bottom?
B: I am bottom
A: Oh sorry, me also bottom, BYE

Did you encounter this before? A PLU friend from Penang once told me, lots of people look down on PLU people cause they are so engrossed in sex, well who don't?

Keny revealed:
I think it depends. Actually you will find that those who start as top might go into being versatile and some bottom can top for the right guy.

You will also find, (that's what my buddy was saying that day) about those "top with bottom personality" and "bottom with top personality". So you sometimes can't really tell. I have seen some guys who are very soft but they are top (at least they insist they are). Hmmm....interesting, and vice versa.

With regards to cum and getting hard, I think it depends, you can enjoy sex without penetration but you can also enjoy "making love" will full penetration with your love ones. There is no wrong or right. I mean as long as both party are contented. Things get a little tricky when you start to compare.

The chat thing is a common stuff. That's why you don't find me using IRC. I think these people are boring, not to say that there are no good people in there but what's the %?

By the way, Ben, I thought PLU overseas used to have a colour code to indicate your preference? Or perhaps we should use the device called Gaydar? (There is such device you know)


Bern discoursed:
When I first chatted online with dog knows who, I was puzzled when people asked me whether I am a top, bot or ver? What was that?

When I finally knew what's that all about, I started to wonder ... do I really need to classify myself? Can't I just do whatever that might please me without having to put myself in either box?

Later, I realized that the TBV thing is attributed (not all the time though) to the person's characteristics:

• Top - masculine (and have problem with their masculinity at the same time), domineering and acting very straight, sometimes, very much like a typical straight man.
• Bottom - effeminate, effeminate, and effeminate.
• Versatile - androgynous, neutral.

Therefore, I somehow believe that the classification of TBV, actually (there may be some exceptional cases) correspond with the gender/sex roles we picked up from the straight world, and not only based on sexual pleasure or enjoyment.

The gender/sex role divisions in the straight world are:

• Man-masculine-dominant-phallus(penis)-penetrator
• Woman-feminine-submissive-phallus(vagina)-being penetrated

Even a neutral or non-dominant androgynous/effeminate straight man has not many choices but to penetrate his female partner, unless, he wants to try dildo.

These gender/sex roles are also duplicated in the PLU world (again, there may be some exceptional cases):

• Top man-masculine-dominant-phallus(penis)-penetrator
• Bottom man-feminine-submissive-the female phallus (vagina) has been
  replaced with anus-being penetrated
• The versatile man, since he is rather neutral, he does not have to assert his domination or submission by the act of penetrating or being penetrated, so I guess, whichever way he chooses is rather spontaneous.

I can be quite certain about what I have said, because every of us (gay only) has a penis and anus. And why TBV? If the top finds it hard to be penetrated, it should not be taken as it is painful to be penetrated (I think it is also painful for the bottom to do it), but they just can't bring themselves to be penetrated. It is against their self-conception as a masculine, dominant, hence a top man. Likewise for those who think that they are bottom.

Again, I can't deny there may be people who just do it because it brings pleasure - either to be top or bottom - and it so happens what they like coincides with their self classification.

Scott shared:
I don't know about this. Is it really necessary to label yourself? When it comes to sex between two lovers, is it important that they should follow their respective roles, rather than doing what they both think the most pleasurable.

To me, guys are sexual animal. Lots of guys mistake sex as love. You often come across this sentence, if you love me, you should give yourself to me. Keith shared this piece of news with me when he came back from Spain last time. He said that people there, mainly straight people, will go to bed first before they would decide whether to be together. This way they would know whether they are meant to be together. If they have great sex together, then they would be happy in their relationship later. I thought this is a bit weird but this is what you get in that country because they do not want to waste time on someone who would turn out incompatible in bed.

I believe in love and I think sex is the byproduct of love. I find it hard to have sex with someone that you hardly know. Sex is a very intimate act which should be shared between two people who love each other. Perhaps when I was younger, my befuddled mind would be clouded by raging hormone. But when I grow older, I would prefer to find love before sex comes into the relationship. I totally agree with Jung, I could love someone without having sex with him for a long while. Just to be with him and talk to him, even occasionally cuddling and kissing would be tremendously enjoyable.

Hey sorry, I think I have veered too far. I meant to talk about the issue of labeling oneself but end up talking about sex and love. Anyway, I think if with the one you love, you would want to do what pleases him the most, rather than your own pleasure because his pleasure is utmost in your mind. People who like to label themselves usually have some inner insecurity issue to deal with. In my opinion, a guy who wants to be a top exclusively must think that by dominating another man, he is macho than macho or he would perceive this act as less gay. Of course I don't know this for sure. I have come across guys who said that they would only f another guy because only gay guys like to be f***ed.

Well, whatever people like to label themselves, this is their freedom and as long as both parties are happy about it, what are us to argue?

Albert said:
To be either of the preferences is up to individual's sexual desire. Being a top doesn't mean only masculine or macho guys, you'll be surprised that there are guys who have the soft outlook and are "top" when it comes to having sex.

Rick Low deviated:
May I drop in to give my 2-cents worth. I agree with your view, Scott. I like to add that if anyone wants to have a long-term relationship, don't be too preoccupied with sex and love. To most straight people who are able to stay married until the day they die, they do it mostly out of commitment and responsibility. A strong will to stay committed to your chosen partner is the key to LTR. Love then comes naturally in LTR, in the form of caring and sharing (for each other).

"Love" is purely a matter of the heart and is often volatile and full of emotions. You may love one person very deeply one day, and the next day the feeling is gone (especially when you find that he has some traits that you don't like or when he has changed thru time, or God forbids, you find someone else more attractive). To me, that's lust. Lust will only become Love when it reaches maturity, when you totally stop questioning about if "he loves me, he loves me not" or if "I love him, I love him not".

Don't let your heart rule the game, but instead be focused to play the game well and stay until the end of the game. To me, it is only game over when one of us dies.

Keny rebutted:
I find it strange that when you said if we are to think about LTR don't be too preoccupied with love? You seem to think that LTR is more like a contract or agreement to stay together? Commitment and responsibility, does that mean that you should stay together even you don't even love each other or have drifted apart, and stay together for the sake of the term LTR? Perhaps we should start defining what is LTR? Does LTR have the same status as marriage? Even though we are denied in the legal marriage status at the time being, means its okay for us to sleep around? Is that legal status so important?

I know there are some PLU who practice open relationship, I respect their preferences. But for me, it's quite difficult. This is because I don't believe in sharing someone.

I think love is something special, it's definitely not only sex or physical attractiveness, it also takes into consideration your interest, maturity level, etc. Thus, I find it strange when you said that love will come then. Please clarify.

If you think that you are still in love and you still think that it's okay share your most intimate with someone else perhaps, tepuk dada tanya selera, don't kid yourself.

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